chaotic_nipple

On the one hand, failry ridicoulous. On the other hand, don't make the mistake of thinking that all Muslims have the same theology or mores (or concerns about idols, which is actually a big deal in Sudanese religious politics), or that there aren't additional cultural implications when we're talking about a foreign white teacher from a former colonial power who is specifically there to spread Christian values. For that matter, while I obviously haven't met this particular women, I have met a distressing number of foreign aid or relief workers in Sudan (and elsewhere) who were complete idiots about local culture (got to especially love the ones who think that a week long seminar or some such makes them experts and then act entirely without humility). There's a differance between "I made a good faith effort culturally but missed this one" and "I'm a fecking twit who didn't bother to pay atention and maybe if they did stick me in jail for a year other people would think twice before being assholes who increase local tension and frquently manage to cause actual harm."

From:

anysia.livejournal.com

On the other hand, don't make the mistake of thinking that all Muslims have the same theology or mores (or concerns about idols, which is actually a big deal in Sudanese religious politics), or that there aren't additional cultural implications when we're talking about a foreign white teacher from a former colonial power who is specifically there to spread Christian values.

I didn't. I was just pointing out just how asinine the entire "YOU INSULTED ISLAM!" bullshit is. If I well and truly wanted to insult Islam, all I would have to do is quote a bit of history about their beloved prophet.

Edited Date: 2007-11-27 05:51 am (UTC)

From:

Ok, but my point is that she did, in fact, insult Islam--if by "Islam" one means not, say, my beliefs, but the specific subset of beliefs that the local Muslims refer to as "Islam." I'm not defending persecuting her, but I also think it might be benificial to attack this action for why it's actually stupid rather than taking easy and vaguely offensive potshots.

From:

On the other hand, don't make the mistake of thinking that all Muslims have the same theology or mores (or concerns about idols, which is actually a big deal in Sudanese religious politics)...

Considering that we are talking about the regime responsible for the Darfur genocide and the restoration of chattel slavery, isn't treating Sudanese "religious politics" concerns as legitimate the equivalent of respecting the Third Reich's cultural autonomy, here?

... or that there aren't additional cultural implications when we're talking about a foreign white teacher from a former colonial power who is specifically there to spread Christian values.

Yes, and I wish the British would have the balls to smack the Sudan around a bit to remind them just why they wound up colonialized in the first place. Why should I take it as extenuating circumstances that she was "foreign," "white," "from a former colonial power," or there to "spread Christian values" ...? The Sudanese may be focking barbarians who don't grasp "freedom of expression," but that doesn't mean that I have to buy into their crap.

When barbarian and civilized values clash, barbarians should yield, or the civilized Powers should administer the barbarians a drubbing. Period.

From:

First of all, excellent use of Godwins law. And while Sudan is pretty goddamn hellish, don't over-evilize them; chattel slavery was hardly dead before they started being assholes (hey, what up Brazil, Libya, significatn stretches of East Europe...)

As for damning local religious politics; ven if one chooses to believe that 3/4ths of someones beliefs are stupid makes all of their beleifs stupid, that still doesn't mean that it's a good idea to rile people up in the midst of civil war/genocide. The "foreign," etc-ness constitutes relevant extenuating circumstances because they effect how the locals saw her actions. When a customer at work calls me a whore, it doesn't face me. When my father calls me a whore, it makes me want to punch someone.

And, most of the "Arab"/"Sudanese" conflict actually dates to the British colonialization--one of their major strategies for mantaining control was breeding conflict between peoples within a colony--it took particularly hard in Sudan, but the after-results are apparent in the politics of most of the former British colonies in Africa (possibly also elsewhere, but Africa is what I know). But, you know, thanks civilized values!

Obviously, I think this action is stupid. BUT I also think that the "omgod obviously they're evil and aren't muslims stupid and they have absolutley no reasons for their actions and hate freedom!!!" reaction isn't helpful, logically true, or condusive to rational foreign policy (or, sometimes, to rational domestic policy re: the way some people think of US Muslims/immigrants/ethnic sub-populations).

From:

Second this, racism/religious/power conflicts are way complicated and need thought and knowledge to deal with, not a blow off because 'those people' aren't important enough to try to understand and be dealt with appropriately.

From:

Heh... That's how I feel about most political/social issues that people tend to make "omgod this is weird/intuitively wrong/EVIL!" arguments about. But, yeah, definetly you=rockage.

From:

Thanks, you made the argument, though. By the way, I'd like to meet you over Christmas if that would be ok, I gotta vet the screaming hordes of ladies after Mike. I'm not sure that one sorry date 11 years ago gives me that privilege but I'll take it anyway, I've known him longer than anybody else in Madison and I tend to trust his opinion ;)

From:

O...K...? Slight fear?

I've friended you for 2 reasons; a) if you're bored, you can now read my posts, thus gathering evidence for when you turn to Mike with a "oh. Oh dear gods. Why? Why would you do this to yourself?" b) more importantly, in the next few days I should be getting a new cell phone (yes, I'm joining the demonics). When I do I'll be posting the number on a friends-locked post, and thereafter said number will probably be the best way to reach me.

From:

First of all, excellent use of Godwins law.

Since I don't acknowledge the authority of Godwin's Law, as far as I'm concerned you said "Excellent use of GA-OOGAH!!! FROOPTY-DOOPTY!" ... and my point still stands.

And while Sudan is pretty goddamn hellish, don't over-evilize them; chattel slavery was hardly dead before they started being assholes (hey, what up Brazil, Libya, significatn stretches of East Europe...)

??? I get Libya, but since well have the Brazilians (or for that matter Eastern Europeans) started capturing people and selling them on the open market?

As for damning local religious politics; ven if one chooses to believe that 3/4ths of someones beliefs are stupid makes all of their beleifs stupid, that still doesn't mean that it's a good idea to rile people up in the midst of civil war/genocide.

??? Their commission of genocide means that their moral standing is lower and hence they need to be more careful about offending civilized countries, not that civilized countries need to be more careful about offending them. This is especially true given that their Armed Forces are a sick joke, and the country they are offending could take them over in about a month ...

... too bad Lady Thatcher seems to have taken Britain's balls with her when she left office.

And, most of the "Arab"/"Sudanese" conflict actually dates to the British colonialization--one of their major strategies for mantaining control was breeding conflict between peoples within a colony--it took particularly hard in Sudan, but the after-results are apparent in the politics of most of the former British colonies in Africa (possibly also elsewhere, but Africa is what I know). But, you know, thanks civilized values!

That is actually not true. The Sudanese rose under their insane Mahdi in the 1880's and 90's and fought to defend their practice of chattel slavery and persecution of non-Muslims. The British did the Sudan and the whole world a big favor when in 1898, at Omdurman, they gave tens of thousands of Muslim loonies a chance to remove themselves from the gene pool in suicidal charges against repeating rifles, machineguns and shell-firing artillery. Why should I conaider failure to utterly suck up to looney Muslims "breeding conflict" -- is the Muslim right to obedience from non-Muslims so all-embracing that not giving them total control over a colony is a clear provocation?

And when push comes to shove, we are left with the reality that they mean to severely punish a teacher for a reason which is, stripped to its bare essentials, sheer lunacy.

People with that attitude are too culturally immature to be allowed sovereignity. Britain would do the world a favor if she used it as an excuse to recolonize the place.

Too bad her balls are temporarily missing. But I have hope that someday, Britain will rise again.

From:

No offense, but you are being a racist, generalizing, and generally nasty person, and I have no respect for your opinions at this time. You are being deliberately offensive and self righteous, and I hope that nobody else listens to you either.

From:

No offense, but you are being a racist, ...

That's a particularly funny statement, given that

1) I said nothing particularly bad about any "races," and

2) The Sudanese regime is supporting the instuitition of Negro slavery.

From:

Sorry, but this comment totally cracks me up. You basically just said "no offense, but you're eeevil. And now I want to make a t-shirt that says that. Or maybe just run around saying it to people...

I might have a stange sense of humor.

From:

Actually, I didn't mean evil, just ignorant and seemingly without the desire to rectify it, as he proved with his response :) People CAN grow up, usually though they are too invested in their current views to do it.

From:

This: Excellent use of GA-OOGAH!!! FROOPTY-DOOPTY! makes me inordinatly happy. Why didn't I think of that back in high school when I was doing debate? That could have been my trademark move.

Anyway, actual response coming later. I have to go do fajr now (because I'm evil) and then work (because I'm greedy).

From:

OK, I'd like to apologize for the Gowin's law comment--that was bitchier than was necessary for my point. I stick with the basic thrust though.

From:

OK, I'd like to apologize for the Godwin's law comment--that was bitchier than was necessary for my point.

I apologize for my bitchy reply. I do think the Nazi analogy is completely appropriate when talking about a regime that reveres the Nazis and commits genocide.

From:

chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com

Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to Sudan?

nanimo has, and was severely injured doing humanitarian work there. Which kind of makes her the designated 'expert' in this discussion, IMO.

From:

I don't think that's fair, actually. Most of the arguments I made are based in my knowledge of history and international politics. My experiences in Sudan may color that knowledge, or me a more nuanced understanding, but having been there doesn't automatically give me an awareness of, say, how they were treated as a colony. And to be honest, our tendancy to think "hey, this person has personal experience with this thing so clearly they have a sophisticated understanding of the giant over-arching issues at plau" rather annoys me.

But! I is a published author on the subject! (Because that means anything either...)

PS I'm sorry I suck today. See, secretly I just offered to hang out with you so that you'd be fooled into thinking I'm a vaguely nice person and will be willing to have sex with me when you're feeling better. But obviously I don't actually follow through on that shit...

From:

chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com

Argument from authority isn't necessarilly a fallacy, it can be a useful supporting argument and shortcut to pointing out the substance of that expert's expertise instead, but I see your point. Anyway, my first instinct was to go "Bad man argue with Kyra, BOYFRIEND SMASH!!!" while beating my chest. Somehow, I sensed taht would be inappropriate. ;-)

From: