This is just plain wrong.

[chaotic_nipple]

Forwarded from schrathe:

Iran to hang teenage girl attacked by rapists.

"Tehran, Iran, Jan. 07 – An Iranian court has sentenced a teenage rape victim to death by hanging after she weepingly confessed that she had unintentionally killed a man who had tried to rape both her and her niece.

The state-run daily Etemaad reported on Saturday that 18-year-old Nazanin confessed to stabbing one of three men who had attacked the pair along with their boyfriends while they were spending some time in a park west of the Iranian capital in March 2005.

Nazanin, who was 17 years old at the time of the incident, said that after the three men started to throw stones at them, the two girls’ boyfriends quickly escaped on their motorbikes leaving the pair helpless.

She described how the three men pushed her and her 16-year-old niece Somayeh onto the ground and tried to rape them, and said that she took out a knife from her pocket and stabbed one of the men in the hand.

As the girls tried to escape, the men once again attacked them, and at this point, Nazanin said, she stabbed one of the men in the chest. The teenage girl, however, broke down in tears in court as she explained that she had no intention of killing the man but was merely defending herself and her younger niece from rape, the report said.

The court, however, issued on Tuesday a sentence for Nazanin to be hanged to death."

Someone explain to me again how Western Culture is supposed to be so sexist and evil?

Clarification to snarky comment: No, I don't think that Western Culture is perfect. It has a wide variety of problems that will take lifetimes to fix. I maintain that we have come farther towards the goal of universal equality than any other contemporary (or most historical) society, and claiming that we're "just as bad", or worse, than the rest of the world, is counterproductive, and only serves to alienate or discourage people whao want to make our society better than it already is. Also, it encourages run-on sentences.

Note: It would be most appreciated if everyone were to make at least a token effort towards civil discussion, and _not_ immediately assume that disagreement and/or criticism is tantamount to a personal attack. Thank you.

Funny, both of the flame wars that have taken place on my blog were instigated by the same person. What are the odds?

Comments

[odanu.livejournal.com]

My whole childhood in New England, I grew up believing that "we aren't racist here", that only those "misguided Southerners" are racist. This while I was looking at my parents' college yearbook Cakewalk pictures, this while the only black family in town was quietly but firmly driven out, this while we oh so liberally took in an exchange student from Harlem, had a wonderful time, and then accused him (wrongfully) of stealing a bunch of stuff when he left.

Since then I've travelled the US a bit. In California, kids of all colors sat at cafeteria tables together and interacted, with racism only at the fringes. In New Mexico, I got to experience being a numerical and cultural minority for the first time. Here in Missouri, I got to see unspoken segregation and clearly spoken bigotry. I finally visited the deep south last year, and in Alabama, everyone knows the rules of the game and their roles within it. Deeply segregated, yet very knowledgeable of each others' ways, unlike the segregation in Missouri.

My point is that only the once, in California on the central coast near an army base, did I find a place where racism at that time and place really had receded so that people could treat each other as individual human beings on a regular basis as a cultural norm rather than a form of defiance.

I have never seen an equivalent case with regard to sexism. Whether overt or covert, expressed or implied, sexism has existed and been rampant in every corner and every culture I have ever taken part in. Some of the sexisms of US Hispanic culture, for instance, are horrifying to observe. Even though I, as a professional social worker, am in a position of nominal power over my clients, I am subjected to sexual harassment on a daily -- closer to hourly -- basis. The difference between what happened to the girl in Iran and a girl here, is that the girl in Iran is more likely to know that she will be treated that way by the legal system. As a former rape crisis advocate, again and again and again I watched women be absolutely stunned at the incredible hostility of the US "justice" system, particularly when the accused was white, middle class or above, or athletic. Especially if the woman was young, poor, and of color. Women who defend themselves from sexual violence, from domestic violence, who attempt to protect their children from violent men, often after repeated attempts to seek help from law enforcement, often end up imprisoned for their efforts. The sentence you mention differs from those imposed on some women in similar circumstances in the US only by method of capital punishment, or by commutation to a life sentence.

I can't recall the name of it, but there is a documentary that makes its way around DV shelters pretty regularly, made in the early 1990's, I think, that is a qualitative study of several young women imprisoned for extended periods of time for killing men who beat them, raped them, beat their children, and forced them to have sex with other men. There isn't any real difference between east and west in this regard, other than the overt vs. covert nature of the discrimination.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Would you hold that there is no difference in the degree of persecution, or that any such difference is truly insignificant? Personally, I would say that there is a big difference between being executing and being imprisoned. Both are unjust, but one is still worse than the other.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

What I would hold is that sexism takes different forms east vs. west, just as racism takes different forms, north vs. south. I don't think either is better or worse. Both are rephrehensible, and the degree of hiddenness is the only real difference. In the middle east, they're called "honor killings", and they're considered acceptable. In the US, it's called "that bitch cheated on me", and it's considered understandable. Neither requires evidence, just the suspicion of a man is enough to condemn a woman to death. While we proclaim that women have far more opportunities in the US than other parts of the world, I can name several predominantly Islamic countries which have had female leadership before the US.

Yes, I hold that the difference is insignificant. Does it matter whether a black man is hung by the KKK for "getting uppity", or shot by the Boston police for "resisting arrest"? They're both dead. They're both dead as a direct result of their race. The sole difference is that Western society is more mealy mouthed about its -isms. It doesn't like to admit to them, at least not in mixed company.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

What do the numbers say? Are _more_ women killed by their own families in the US, for example? Does Iran have higher literacy rates for women? Do women flee the US for sanctuary in Saudi Arabia, or is it the other way around? Are rape victims routinely executed in teh US, instead of just socially shunned? You can talk about "hidden" versus "overt", but I prefer to think in terms of things that can be directly measured and quantified. Subjective = unreliable, IMO.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

When you start living my subjective life, you can start telling me I'm unreliable. Who gives a flying fuck whether more women are murdered here or there? 4.5% of American college men a few years ago admitted to being rapists. That's 6 million men. Given that these are highly educated men, and that there are likely to be more that didn't admit it, we have an epidemic of rape by any standard in this country. Two men who would not have qualified for that poll have raped me in my lifetime. On a daily basis while trying to help get homeless men and women off the street, I am subjected to constant references to my body, inquiries about my marital status, and demands that I "smile" for their pleasure. I left the financial industry three years ago after training three men who got promoted over me. This country has had no female presidents.

Don't twist yourself in a knot trying to pat yourself on the back for how well this country is doing. I have a Master's degree, and my husband has a certification that took 9 months after high school to get. He makes $10,000 more per year than I do. Don't bother telling me that I am in a traditionally female field and he is not, and that is why he makes more. I know that. But why is investing in human capital and dealing with complex emotional, financial, physical, and spiritual problems less well-compensated than being able to put in ductwork?

But, since my subjective life experience as a white, educated, professional woman in America is unreliable, IYO, I'll leave you alone. It is offense as hell when a dozen women tell you that things really are that bad for us, you continue to argue the point. And, in the arguing, you prove our point.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Of 59 people on my friends list, 37 are female. Based on previous online or real life conversations, I know for a fact that 6 of them agree with me on this, and I strongly suspect another five 5 or 6 would. 3 I'm positive will disagree with me, with another 3 or 4 who probably will. The rest of 'em, well, it's never come up in conversation. Counting the non-friends who've commented on this thread, that still leaves a bare majority of females who, based on their own subjective experiences, would agree with me. From this, I can conclude that I'm _obviously_ right. (/sarcasm)

What's this you say? Wholly subjective and without scientific merit? You're right. Hell, I can go out right now and find dozens of people who will _swear_ that White Male Christians are the Most Oppressed Minority In America, Nay, The _World_. It's bullshit, but they believe it wholeheartedly, and they're full of anecdotes that, in their mind, prove them right. Subjective impressions and experiences are inherently less reliable than information that can be analysed and quantified.

Luckily, this (http://www.livescience.com/othernews/060124_political_decisions.html) interesting little article gives me hope that someday we will be able to measure subjective experience and opinions vs factual knowledge. At the very least, a miniaturized version of this technology could finally settle the age-old argument that goes "You're close-minded and self-righteous!" "No, YOU are!".

But some of my best friends are black!

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, why does that have a familiar ring to it?

Thank you for completely missing my point.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Said point being the inherent unreliability of subjective experience, and the need to check _all_ claims against information that can be objectively verified.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

You completely ignored the concrete information I gave you in your quest to hold to a view that really is unsustainable. Women make considerably less than men in this country. Traditionally "women's" fields are considerably undervalued compared to "men's" fields requiring far less training to accomplish. And let's go over that last statistic again. 4.5 % of college men surveyed admitted to having raped at least one woman. That's six million men. That's not including non-college educated men who may very will have a higher rate of rapists among them. So, at a very bare minimum, assuming that each rapist raped only one woman (not a safe assumption, btw), these men are responsible for 6 million rapes of mostly American woman.

Yet your entire screed is designed to silence American woman through shame that "they have it so good" and "shouldn't complain so much". Give me a break. Overt or covert, oppression of women is one of the bases of both western and eastern society.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

I didn't argue any of those points regarding oppression of women in our own society, 'cuz I agree with all of 'em. I had no designs on 'silencing' women either. It just annoys me when people claim our society is _worse_ than others.

[odanu.livejournal.com]

I did not say that the western world is worse. I said the western world is different, much as, say, racial discrimination in Boston is different than racial discrimination here in Kansas City where I am. To the person experiencing it, one might be worse than the other. There are trade-offs for both systems. Women in the West have more overt freedoms and more covert discriminations, so expectations may be higher than reality allows (the "have it all" idea). Women in the Middle East have clearly defined dress codes (I tell you what, to me, veils seem like a very simple "uniform", and I can see certain advantages to them), and often clearly defined social roles as a part of their discrimination.

On the other hand, there is a culture of "man rules the world, woman rules the home" in many parts of the east and middle east that is very liberating compared to what goes on behind closed doors in Western societies. Not always, but sometimes. Rape occurs, probably in similar percentages, in both cultures. Women are blamed for their own rapes in both cultures. Women are murdered for their sexuality in both cultures, and women who defend themselves from rape are often punished in both cultures.

The person experiencing discrimination cannot view it "objectively". It's "bad". It's bad if you're an American woman facing a glass ceiling for the umpteenth time in a career much less than you dreamed it would be, and its' bad if you're a middle eastern woman whose rebellious brother taught her how to drive and you're not allowed to do so. It's "bad" in comparison to the dominant culture, which is a different point of reference in each culture. In some ways eastern culture might be worse, in some, western culture. The final arbiter of which oppression is worse is the person who has experienced both. The rest of us are limited to "this is bad ... how can we make it better?".