This is just plain wrong.

[chaotic_nipple]

Forwarded from schrathe:

Iran to hang teenage girl attacked by rapists.

"Tehran, Iran, Jan. 07 – An Iranian court has sentenced a teenage rape victim to death by hanging after she weepingly confessed that she had unintentionally killed a man who had tried to rape both her and her niece.

The state-run daily Etemaad reported on Saturday that 18-year-old Nazanin confessed to stabbing one of three men who had attacked the pair along with their boyfriends while they were spending some time in a park west of the Iranian capital in March 2005.

Nazanin, who was 17 years old at the time of the incident, said that after the three men started to throw stones at them, the two girls’ boyfriends quickly escaped on their motorbikes leaving the pair helpless.

She described how the three men pushed her and her 16-year-old niece Somayeh onto the ground and tried to rape them, and said that she took out a knife from her pocket and stabbed one of the men in the hand.

As the girls tried to escape, the men once again attacked them, and at this point, Nazanin said, she stabbed one of the men in the chest. The teenage girl, however, broke down in tears in court as she explained that she had no intention of killing the man but was merely defending herself and her younger niece from rape, the report said.

The court, however, issued on Tuesday a sentence for Nazanin to be hanged to death."

Someone explain to me again how Western Culture is supposed to be so sexist and evil?

Clarification to snarky comment: No, I don't think that Western Culture is perfect. It has a wide variety of problems that will take lifetimes to fix. I maintain that we have come farther towards the goal of universal equality than any other contemporary (or most historical) society, and claiming that we're "just as bad", or worse, than the rest of the world, is counterproductive, and only serves to alienate or discourage people whao want to make our society better than it already is. Also, it encourages run-on sentences.

Note: It would be most appreciated if everyone were to make at least a token effort towards civil discussion, and _not_ immediately assume that disagreement and/or criticism is tantamount to a personal attack. Thank you.

Funny, both of the flame wars that have taken place on my blog were instigated by the same person. What are the odds?

Comments

[dracphelan.livejournal.com]

But, it is just their way. Remember, Islam is the religion of peace and love. After all, you wouldn't want to be accused of religious opression.

[soldiergrrrl.livejournal.com]

*snerk*

That was funny. (Your comment, not that story.)

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'll remember that the next time I hear some Xtian whining about how they're being taken to task for the freaks for form the minority of their religion.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Just like Xtianity. Of course, it would be totally unfair to compare American taliban like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson to the vast majority of Xtians, wouldn't it? And it would be totally unfair to talk about how women in the west have the pretense of more liberty, what will the ability to get BC prescriptions filled, the ability to get an abortion anywhere, the fact that rape in the West is 100% eradicated, and that guys don't pat themselves on the back for being better than those savages when in fact they just use more camouflage.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

To be fair, prior to the Enlightenment, European Christianity was about as bad as the modern day Jihadis are. The ancient Hebrews were much, much worse, 7th century Islam was a veritable women's paradise compared to the Christian and Jewish societies of the day.

Then came the Age of Reason, the European religions were forced to adapt themselves to the demands of modern society, and little things like rational inquiry, religious toleration, and political pluralism slowly became more prominant. Alas, the Middle East missed the boat back then, and in subsequent centuries various Muslim political and religious leaders saw such advances as attacks by the infidels, and deliberately rejected them, in the process going against their own traditions, to the point where contemporary Missle Eastern societies are more oppressive and misogynistic than they were a thousand years ago.

But for the vagaries of history, it could have been Iran where Secular Democracy was born, and western society that was still a medieval hellhole. Good thing we have a President who's out to remove every last vestige of secularism _and_ democracy in our own country! :-P

[jackytar.livejournal.com]

Still doesn't make Western soi-disant 'civilization' better. At most it makes less bad. Maybe not 'evil', but sure as hell sexist still.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's so much better to put up the pretense. After all, every rape in the west is solved and punsihed and we value women so much that their word is accepted just as any other crime victim's. And of course no rape victims get called sluts and whores. And of course women here can get abortions in 100% of US counties.

Don't dislocate anything patting yourself on the back.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Why is it that you seem to reflexively assume that any time someone says "Things are better here" that they're really saying "Things are perfect here, so stop complaining"? Have I ever argued that Western society was perfect? I rail against our society's shortcomings all the time, it just annoys me whenever people try and claim that the West is _worse_, when by any measurable, tangible standard, it's not.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, by whose standard? Yours? You're specifically comparing this for the purpose of dismissing criticism of the west, or at least that's what you accomplish. Your last question proves it. "remind me again how the wst is so sexist and evil?" You bring up the atrocity of one culture to compare it to another and minimize the latter's abuses against women.

saying that the west is better than some backward country is basically a threat. "It could be worse, you know." It's also passive. "see how much worse it is?" seeing as how it's so bad over there, we don't have to improve anything here.

Bottom line is, if you'd left out the snarky comparisons, it would be a story about women's rights abuses. Add the comparison, and it's just a way of making people feel better about their culture.

[soldiergrrrl.livejournal.com]

Heh. Good luck, hon.

[dekarch.livejournal.com]

Ginmar is pathologically adverse to any measurable, tangible standard other than her imagined perfection. Might explain why she has such a difficult time dealing with Real Life.

[cdaae.livejournal.com]

Someone explain to me again how Western Culture is supposed to be so sexist and evil?

I get the impression you're not actually looking for an answer to that one.

That the actions of Islamic militants are foul does not lessen Western culture's sexism. If we only cared about our rights when there was no one in the world who has it even worse, we'd never advance.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree. What I find annoying is the mindset, so sadly common amongst liberal types, that holds that Western culture is inherently and uniquely evil, when by every tangible measure of the values that we godless lib'ruls are alleged to hold dear, Western society is better.

Now, if someone were to say that the US, specifically, was more sexist or racist than many other _Western_ countries, I'd have no problem, as that would be a true statement. :-)

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

we have a society based on the pretense of freedom for some. It so happens that you belong to the class that's the primary beneficiary of that belief, that pretense. Western women might get treated better on paper, but in fact those paper rights have been chipped away to almost nothing and all that's left is denial. Those rights exist on a continuum. Iran may be farther to the worst, but it still dishes out the same type of crap to women, but not to men.

Like it or not, telling American women that, in effect, we should be grateful for what we've got is telling us to not ask for more. You think this is the first time someone made that comparison?

[odanu.livejournal.com]

My whole childhood in New England, I grew up believing that "we aren't racist here", that only those "misguided Southerners" are racist. This while I was looking at my parents' college yearbook Cakewalk pictures, this while the only black family in town was quietly but firmly driven out, this while we oh so liberally took in an exchange student from Harlem, had a wonderful time, and then accused him (wrongfully) of stealing a bunch of stuff when he left.

Since then I've travelled the US a bit. In California, kids of all colors sat at cafeteria tables together and interacted, with racism only at the fringes. In New Mexico, I got to experience being a numerical and cultural minority for the first time. Here in Missouri, I got to see unspoken segregation and clearly spoken bigotry. I finally visited the deep south last year, and in Alabama, everyone knows the rules of the game and their roles within it. Deeply segregated, yet very knowledgeable of each others' ways, unlike the segregation in Missouri.

My point is that only the once, in California on the central coast near an army base, did I find a place where racism at that time and place really had receded so that people could treat each other as individual human beings on a regular basis as a cultural norm rather than a form of defiance.

I have never seen an equivalent case with regard to sexism. Whether overt or covert, expressed or implied, sexism has existed and been rampant in every corner and every culture I have ever taken part in. Some of the sexisms of US Hispanic culture, for instance, are horrifying to observe. Even though I, as a professional social worker, am in a position of nominal power over my clients, I am subjected to sexual harassment on a daily -- closer to hourly -- basis. The difference between what happened to the girl in Iran and a girl here, is that the girl in Iran is more likely to know that she will be treated that way by the legal system. As a former rape crisis advocate, again and again and again I watched women be absolutely stunned at the incredible hostility of the US "justice" system, particularly when the accused was white, middle class or above, or athletic. Especially if the woman was young, poor, and of color. Women who defend themselves from sexual violence, from domestic violence, who attempt to protect their children from violent men, often after repeated attempts to seek help from law enforcement, often end up imprisoned for their efforts. The sentence you mention differs from those imposed on some women in similar circumstances in the US only by method of capital punishment, or by commutation to a life sentence.

I can't recall the name of it, but there is a documentary that makes its way around DV shelters pretty regularly, made in the early 1990's, I think, that is a qualitative study of several young women imprisoned for extended periods of time for killing men who beat them, raped them, beat their children, and forced them to have sex with other men. There isn't any real difference between east and west in this regard, other than the overt vs. covert nature of the discrimination.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Would you hold that there is no difference in the degree of persecution, or that any such difference is truly insignificant? Personally, I would say that there is a big difference between being executing and being imprisoned. Both are unjust, but one is still worse than the other.

[madlycool.livejournal.com]

Bet you're sorry now! It would be less stressful for you if you stuck to 'Kirk-Picard slash fic legos'. Or barbecue fudge recipes.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Yes, but I would have had to hit myself repeatedly if I strung the words "slash fic" and "lego" together. (smack!)

[jeric-synergy.livejournal.com]

The fact that Iran is fucked up doesn't magically make the West less fucked up than it is.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

The fact that the West is fucked up doesn't mean that Iran isn't _more_ fucked up.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

But, hey, let's just pat ourselves on the back for being less fucked up instead of decreasing the fucked-uped-ness, shall we?

sick!!

[(Anonymous)]

This is sick!!period.

It inflamed me to read this kind of bs happening.

how far should I go and say,why izzit this is Islam?Because some a-holes calling themselves Muslim clerics taking this action?
If that is so,Christians want to kill Chavez.

We heard one side of the story,what about the other side of the story?
If the woman killed the man because he wanted to rape her and her niece,this is sick.
But, I wonder if this was the only truth?

Re: sick!!

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

I'd be willing to bet large sums of money that the 'other side' of this one was simply "The bitch wouldn't sit still!" followed by "Ouch, she stabbed me!", and then "Where am I and who are these grinning red creatures with pitchforks and barbed-wire clad penises?"!? I guess it's possible there's more to this story than meets the eye, but I doubt it.

[blue-chicory.livejournal.com]

Shot yourself in the ass with this one, dearie. Yes, it is good that we don't kill people for defending themselves from rapists, and it is bad that we still have shitty things happening here in the good ol' USA. So now lets take the passion displayed here to go out and make everywhere better, unless we like unproductive argumentation more. Start by living what you want to see. Sound reasonable?

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Yes, very reasonable.